Feminism

29 05 2008

I imagine that my rather large female reader base is going to read the first three or sentences of this article, get incredibly angry, stop reading, and start sending me a bunch of angry emails that I will, to return the favor, also not read. But I’m doing it anyway. Fuck it.

My Conoy background has given me a perspective on gender issues that usually enrages traditional western feminists despite it being one that I believe would give women far more power than the standard notion of ‘gender equality’.

Figure 1: Typical feminist, five seconds after I’ve started talking

In the old days before white people came and fucked everything up, only Conoy men served as Werowance and Tayac*. Only men were the soldiers and the builders. Only men could serve on the governing councils. Women were sent away from the villages during their Moon** because of the cosmic power it represented (kind of a “we’re not worthy” thing). In the household, a man’s word was final.

On the flip side, women didn’t have the same TYPE of power as men – but they had power that was arguably equal to or even greater than that of men. Clan Mothers could have a Werowance executed as long as she could prove he was fucking up (if the U.S. was Conoy-run, Nancy Pelosi could’ve had George Bush killed years ago). Women were responsible not just for cooking, but for the land itself. It was the women (and children) that handled the entire planting cycle from seed to harvest and, though there was no concept of land ownership, land was considered to ‘belong’ to women. Inheritance was matrilineal. When a man and woman married, the man and the children became part of the woman’s clan and moved into the woman’s lodge, rather than the other way around. If a woman wanted a divorce, she grabbed up all her husband’s shit and tossed it out of the lodge…and this constituted a formal divorce.

Figure 2: Intimidating, yes. But a woman owns his nuts, I promise.

Unfortunately, this Indian brand of assigning gender roles would never work in the modern world because, at its core, it’s a system of checks and balances between men and women with roles assigned according to natural predispositions (men are naturally aggressive and outwardly dominant, women are naturally nurturing and inwardly dominant). Men had power over the world, but women had power over the men. Hyperindustrialized economies, unfortunately, render this system moot because gender is no longer a parameter in the socio-economic equation (except when it comes to prejudice).

In my view, western feminism has done a disservice to women because it’s actually eroded their real power over men. This is because western feminism is essentially based on the idea of turning women socially and economically into men***. The result of this has been very empowering for women (or so it would seem), but it’s come at the cost of removing co-dependence between men and women which, from a macro-societal standpoint, is a bad thing. Women don’t ‘need’ men anymore, per se – but now the men don’t ‘need’ women either. With men and women adopting the same socio-economic roles, the need (and power) that men and women have for (and over) one another has been degraded to a purely sexual one.

This is why chivalry is dead. This is why we always have to listen to stupid ass men accusing empowered women of “penis envy” and why we always have to listen to stupid ass women asserting their power over men with the “we have the vagina, and we know you want it” argument.

Figure 3: The current state of Chivalry…

Of course, I could direct my anger at industrialized economies rather than feminism, but I choose to attack feminism because its founders chose the first (and lower) of the two roads the ideology could have adopted:

  1. Empower women by adopting the boorish and aggressive qualities of men
  2. Empower women by making men adopt the more reserved and genteel (but not feminine) qualities of women

Both options are fairly unnatural, but I get the feeling that if feminists had pursued option 2, both girls and guys would be a whole lot happier. The ladies could’ve made it happen, too. After all, they have the vagina and yes, we do want it.

Instead they chose option 1, and how very sad it is to see that choice reduce men and women to mere baby makers in the eyes of one another.

*Werowance = Chief. Tayac = Chief of Chiefs
**Menstrual cycle
***I am not a feminist scholar, and am not well versed in what feminism is theoretically based on. I don’t give a shit about theory – I’m basing this claim instead on what I’ve seen and heard from actual feminists in day-to-day life

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193 responses

29 05 2008
Angry IV

Seems pretty legitimate to me. Some feminists will argue that they aren’t the “aggressive” type, that they just want things to be equal in the workplace – I say they aren’t feminists, rather, they are advocates for equality in the workplace for women. Completely different.

29 05 2008
stuffgirlshlike

Chris Why not have a go at militant feminism only, I do not mind seeing women entering careers they had been denied access to, I do not mind haveing a vote.
Men have not always done a good job at it.

I think the biggest shift in roles has come because both men and women have to work full time because of the tax system and men are to blame for that.

I am more worried about men acting female than of Feminism.

http://stuffgirlslike.wordpress.com

29 05 2008
Lauren

@Angry. No, it’s not completely different at all. That is BY DEFINITION feminism. I think that who Chris is writing about is the stereotypical feminist, and yes, they are infuriating. And that’s why I never get offended by Chris’ posts, because anyone who takes their life that seriously and lets a label define them needs a thorough laughing at. But my personal experience with feminism is different. My best friend is a feminist, she believes in equality for women and loves Women’s Studies. But she loves and respects her men and isn’t a “ballbreaker.” She just believes women should be equal and have the same choices as a man when it comes to jobs, sexuality, marriage, etc.

Feminist that have to make men feel like shit are just as bad as men have to make women feel like shit….insecure.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Fuck. It is not gonna be a good day. I have to read this later. It’s as if I came to the site and saw my own name as the ‘hate’ of the day.

29 05 2008
eddiemase

You know whats crazy? I am a decent, not great, but decent cook. I can cook 3-4 meals a week and generally they won’t cause food poisoning. But I know a lot (not saying all) women that really just cannot cook. Feminists want to have all the equality but are sometimes so willing to leave behind the reasons why men really love women and why i would assume its great to be a woman.

I love women, but dare I say, I shouldn’t be more averse in cleaning, cooking and more caring than you. That’s a problem. Go get your cock implant and call it a day.

-Ed.
http://www.edthesportsfan.com

29 05 2008
tokenDesigner

Liberal feminists are fine (they stress equal rights and overcoming overt discrimination). Radical feminists, or feminazis, as I like to call them, are what I think Chris is referring to.

These are the women that like to play the Oppression Olympics and say It’s harder to be a woman than a black person because racism is something imposed by white men (as stated in a feminist manifesto “Oppression” by Marilyn Frye) as if white women weren’t the ones who were also throwing bricks and screaming nigger during segregation.

As a liberal feminist, I have to concede Chris makes excellent points, many that I’ve made to a lot of my guy acquaintances. The feminazis are also the ones that do about as much for the betterment of women as Al Sharpton does for the betterment of black people- they get pissy about every little thing. The best example of a feminazi is a die hard HRC supporter who refuses to vote for Barack because he’s the shining example of sexism in America -which aside from that one “Hold on sweetie” remark, which I believe was an honest slip, is bull.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Oh, this didn’t piss me off at all. False alarm, lol.

Lauren, I think you summed it up pretty well, as did Chris ( I don’t agree 100% with his asssertations, but I can respect them). I am vehemently feminist, but it’s in a more reactionary way. I think we could have a great culture of ‘checks and balances’, but misogyny thwarts our ability to do so. I am definitely gonna steal that, ‘checks and balances’. Love it.

This is a very anti-female society and our sub-society (Negronia) is even more guilty of perpetuating anti-woman notions and behavior. Black people exist in a very unique and unhealthy space: we are a misogynist patriarchy. Black women are (by default and by merit) the backbone of our community and are as beloved as they are hated and as hated as they are essential. Used, abused, neglected….I could go on for days.

I respect people’s rights to define their own identity without having to subscribe to traditional gender roles. However, it frustrates me that so many feminists adopt traits that are traditionally male simply because they oppose what society prescribes. Does having long ass underarm hair and a buzz cut make you a better FEMinist? I vote no. You can do that if you want, but it seems to me that you are defining feminism as being like a man, whilst hating men. Reminds me of what Whites do to the coloreds.

As a great man once said “you’ll have yours, and I’ll have mine. And together we’ll be fine, because it takes, diff’rent strokes to move the world” That is my approach to this gender thing.

Ed, you sound like an ass.

29 05 2008
Akela

I think you should read up on Womanism. Your claims are based on yes a stereotype of actually a white, european based concept, “feminism.” Womanism was started by Black women because our fight was different and feminism excluded our actual needs.(I mean please Black women have been working since we got to this crazy ass country, and voting was a moot point for a while), I’d be interested to see if your views are the same, as to how it effects the gender roles in the Black community. I think our gender problems stem from a bigger animal….

29 05 2008
stuffgirlshlike

I know this is a not so serious thread, but there is a lot of material on the origins of Feminism- subversives started the feminist movement because they were anti the traditional family.

A good source is Rabbi Marvin Antelmans “To eliminate the Opiate”

http://stuffgirlslike.wordpress.com

29 05 2008
PrettyPiscesGirl

I really want Chris to stay out of my head…j/k

In any event, I’m a history buff. One of my particular obsessions as a child was reading about American Indians (“Native” Americans were not in my vocab then). I was fascinated with the cultures, and how they honored the land, God, and especially women.

With that said, RADICAL feminism pisses me off. It makes it harder for me to find men that are chivalrous, and actually WANT to act like a man and let me be the woman. It’s made men turn into bitchasses who look at you crazy if you expect them to open doors, carry bags, offer you their jacket if it’s cold, etc. and so forth. I tell my peeps all the time…if I could go back and kick the asses of those silly chicks who started the nonsense, I so would. I’m for equality, but um, “separate but equal” sounds a hell of a lot better than “I don’t need you cause I can do anything you can”.

29 05 2008
Knatural

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHA@Figure 3. Feminism/Womanism is an interesting concept, though I don’t understand it completely, I do find it odd that women are the majority, and like ST said, the backbone, in most societies yet have fewer “rights” than men. I have to say: I do have issue with co-dependence. My culinary skills, resourcefulness, and drive should be matched or exceeded by my partner, and when it’s not I’m a lil pissed. However, when a giant flying roach/palmetto bug gets in the bathroom I need my husband to kill it.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Has anyone here read Wallace’s “Black Macho And The Myth Of The Superwoman” or any bell hooks (esp. “Feminism Is For Everybody”)?

Wonder what Shabooty is gonna come with this topic? I am guessing something like “I let bitches ride on top, thats feminism”.

29 05 2008
PrettyPiscesGirl

bell hooks is my girl!

29 05 2008
Lauren

@Sister Toldja lmBAO!!! “I let bitches ride on top, thats feminism”
Thats my motto, and I will be stealing it. I am reading bell hook’s Ain’t I a Woman?
@Akela…I completely feel you…I subscribe to Womanism over Feminism anyday. Alice Walker is great! Mainstream Femisnists, tho they won’t admit it, are just coming around to accepting black woman and not making us choose between our blackness and womaness.
Did we just turn this message board into a Women’s studies class?

29 05 2008
Omar

I also believe in some gender roles, but not necessarily in a strict sense, because we are normally good at different things, Chris is right regardless of what people think MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT. The problem is sometimes people take things to extreme and end up just as fucced up as when it started.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Lauren- we NEED one around these parts! LOL.

I know I am more fundamentally “womanist” than “feminist”. However, I use the words interchangibly, because I refuse to let White women own the latter word (and the concept). Black women need to stop fearing feminism/womanism, because we need it more now than ever! See, the problem is that we seem to think that the Black man’s struggle is THE Black struggle, while both refusing to acknowledge our own challenges with sexism and forcing the Black man to see that the Black woman’s struggle is his own.

Oh we having church up in here today!

29 05 2008
Mrs. Kennedy

I agree, ST. Ed sounds like a total ass. The ability to cook and clean should not be what defines one’s femininity/masculinity.
But unfortunately, the consistent argument in my home is about the cooking and cleaning.
My husband made it clear to me that he never intended to be the sole bread winner, and I made it clear that if I didn’t HAVE to work, i wouldn’t. With that being said, I cook every day for my husband and son, I clean every day, and i take my black ass to WORK every day. . .
See what western feminism has done to my family? I am content with traditional gender roles (raise babies, take care of “the land” i.e. our townhouse) yet he thinks that I want the same opportunity to work as him(NOT true) because I went to school and am gainfully employed, yet STILL expects the traditional “cooking and cleaning.”
Because of the stigma associated with feminism, society (and my husband) refuses to embrace its more logical tenets and instead focus on the negative loud-and-wrong few and interpret its doctrine in a way that is beneficial of their own arguments (you want to work? Fine here’s your job . . . for 30 cents less.)
As a result, I am hesitant to call myself a feminist as it will be yet another assigned title I will have to defend because a.) feminist hate me when I say “I’d rather not work, I like staying home to raise babies, thank you” and b.) men think you don’t shave and are a lesbian ball buster. Does that make me a sellout? Iono, and frankly, my dear, i don’t give a damn. My resolution? We hired a maid.

And while that picture of chivalry had me rolling, it was only because it was so sad, it was funny.
This is going to be an interesting day. . .

29 05 2008
Cola

@PrettyPiscesGirl

You ain’t never lied. I really want to punch the radical feminists for taking it too damn far. I am all for equal rights but miss me with trying to make me do some of the icky guy stuff!

@Ed
In response to some women not knowing how to cook..I don’t know a helluva lot about cars but I know the basics. Why is that I am running across heterosexual men that don’t know shit about cars?! They can’t even change the oil or make minor repairs?!

29 05 2008
PrettyPiscesGirl

Would love to stay home and take care of the household, babies, etc. I work because I HAVE to…damn sure not cause I WANT to, yanno?

29 05 2008
puff

i agree with this post – betty friedan and her crew fucked women over big time because their “feminism” basically meant that [white] women should do all what men do in society without changing men’s roles an eon – and who ended up cooking, cleaning, washing dirty draws and raising children for them? other [black/latina/asian/non-white more broadly] women who didn’t have the luxury of college degrees or rich fathers/husbands.

not only that, the value of the “traditional” role of women has fallen so far as a result of “feminism” – a woman who wants to stay home and take care of her kids is looked down upon more often than not, with “feminists” saying, “after all the strides that have been made for you, you just want to stay home and be a housewife?” bullshit on that. man might have made the train, plane and motherfucking electric bulb, but he never could have done it without a woman taking care of him. if the work women put into a household was measured as part of the economy’s output, maybe george bush wouldn’t be sweating so hard right now.

me personally, as an african woman, i take pride in being able to cook and clean like a pro. doesn’t mean i still won’t have a successful career, or expect my husband/partner to put in work at home, but i consider both of these aspects of being a woman equally important, as well as the sometimes patriarchal but still vital parts of my culture that determine a woman’s role in the family. apparently that’s called “third-world feminism” or “womanism” by scholars today. i call it what my mama taught me.

29 05 2008
Cola

Nicely said Puff! 🙂

29 05 2008
Omar

@Cola – I think a lot of men used to know a lot about cars because they had to but if you could afford to get someone else to fix it you would.

My mother used to do that type of shit to me at 13 I was somehow supposed to miraculously know plumbing, how to lay tile, and cut down trees, just because I’m a man WTF.

29 05 2008
Knatural

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH @Omar. Aren’t men born holding a screwdriver and wearing goggles? Girls are born knowing how to bake. Omar, something’s wrong with you.

29 05 2008
sarah

since feminism is about choice, i choose not to label myself as such. all feminism has done is break down old stereotypes and made new, and not necessarily positive, ones.

29 05 2008
optimo peach

im waitin on shabooty too. lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and ok Puff!! preach

29 05 2008
Cola

Omar that is funny but I was just trying to prove a point to Ed. Every woman can’t cook just like every man isn’t a handy man. But on the other hand aren’t there certain things we should just know how to do? I mean.. why would I be grown and not know how to cook? (this applies to men and women) I’m not saying you have to like doing it! You should just know how to do the freaking basics.. Let me stop rambling.

29 05 2008
brran1

I don’t have any problem with Men or Women taking on the opposite “gender roles”, but I do have a problem with people (note: I said people, not specifically women OR men) that go overboard with it.

29 05 2008
Omar

Cola, I feel you, I know how to change the oil anyway and now because of my mother I can cut down a tree… but I make no promises about where it’s going to land. At this point as expensive as things are I’m doing everything myself, I ain’t buying nothing but gas and food.

By the way I do think that our obesity/health care crisis is because women stopped cooking and brothas didn’t pick up a spatula, just my thoughts.

29 05 2008
Cola

Whoa Omar!

You are not going to blame the obesity crisis on us! Blame it on the hormones and chemicals that they put in the food.

Men only have themselves to blame. lol. Men are overweight from sitting on their butts eating and playing Madden instead of going outside and playing for real! 🙂

29 05 2008
Scipio Africanus

It also has thrown off the pursuit and expectation of marriage among younger people. Men used to marry women because they needed a family unit in order to survive (frequently off the land.) Women needed men because many of teh ways of making money required brute strength (again, the land.) Of course there was plenty of sexism that prevented women from having lots of other types of jobs as well, but your point about mutual necessity comes into play here.

Now the shit is reduced pretty much strictly to love. When love is teh sole factor, and folks are unwilling to settle, you wind up with lower marriage rates, and high divorces too. Some folks see that as a good thing, some bad.

29 05 2008
Knatural

It boils down to Survival Skills. Men and Women should both be able to cook* (more than breakfast), change a tire, sew buttons, switch out windshield wipers, hang a mirror, vacuum, burp a baby, wash a tub, type, pay bills, et cetera, et cetera.
*Men who can’t cook upset me. Read a few recipes, damnit! Practice makes perfect.
Omar – obesity/health crisis blamed on women and men’s laziness? Nice try.

29 05 2008
Cheekie

puff, you are so spot-on. While I do appreciate women progressing to the point where they can “do anything a man can”, I’m not down with the basic traits associated with “femininity” (like nurturing) being deemed as weak. Like you can’t be “nurturing” and still believe that a woman has every right to do what a man can do? Ten types of bullshit.

That very weak trait (nurturing) is one of the primary traits of a mother. The very trait that shapes the assholes who make these dumb rules on what is “weak” and what isn’t. And any woman who can squeeze a PERSON out of her is everything that is the opposite of weak.

29 05 2008
Omar

I said both men and women were to blame, actually more so on men because we didn’t fill the gap but McDonalds did, besides real cooking is an activity in and of itself and tends to get people off of their behinds a little.

29 05 2008
Muse

I haven’t even read the post yet but from the title alone I know the comments section is going to turn into a war between the dicks and the vaginas LOL.

BTW I’m anti feminism and I will explain once I finish up these financial reports for my dickhead boss.

29 05 2008
vitazza

Very insightful post today Chris…..I have been having this same conversation with my spouse for 16 years. He has maintained that women have always had tremendous power in society …… but, the power over a man is not what most women are really looking for. I think most women are looking for empowerment of self…and a rightful choice in their destiny….. ……That my friend is a reason to embrace feminism………peace

29 05 2008
Vanita

Ok Puff!
I personally LOVE to eat, therefore I LOVE to cook. I, however, HATE HATE HATE cleaning. Oh well. This is where I expect my partner to pick up slack. We should operate as a whole. Ill cook all day for you, but Im NOT washing those pots. (if your gonna eat it, you should clean it right?)
I love my job, and I work because I really enjoy what I do. But yes, if i didnt HAVE to work, I would love to be a stay-at-home mom, taking care of the kids, running the house, and telling the maid to make sure the dishes are put back in the right place 🙂

29 05 2008
TheChad

I think some of yall are missing the whole point of the post which was to talk about the misgivings of modern feminism in a historical view. Chris gives examples from his own heritage where, historically, interactions btwn men and women were based on natural dispositions and not societal theories. Similar to Ed (who God, I hope) was trying to be historical in his description of gender roles in the home with women doing more cooking than men. These things USED to be VALUES of the family structure and society as a whole. It doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t be given the same opportunities as men with equal wages and representation. It just means that for a society to operate in a more efficient manner, we as men and women should fit into a structure because currently there isn’t one. It all depends on where you were born and who raised you instead of the CULTURE you’re born INTO.

I also think this is why the divorce rate in so dangum high, but that’s another conversation.

Dig.

trialandera.wordpress.com

29 05 2008
sarah

vanita, i am exactly the same way. i will throw down in the kitchen, but don’t ask me to clean the bathroom. washing the dishes calms me though. i loved cooking for my ex-boyfriend and he loved doing household stuff, so it was no big deal for him to wash the dishes or fold the clothes. he did it without prompting. i liked it cause, call it check and balances if you want, it felt like we needed each other. i don’t care how you slice it, sometimes you just need someone. i dont think we should fight it either. it feels good to be needed and when you need something, it feels good to know that someone has your back.

29 05 2008
the champ

I touched on this a bit on my site yesterday. I’m kind of ambivalent about radfems. I mean, on one hand, they do consistently make for great drinking buddies, but, for many women, it does seem that “feminism” = “personally embody the worse characteristics of a stereotypical guy”. It’s akin to the homosexual man who’s girlier than the girliest girl.

(You know, I’d even argue that the sexual revolution of the late 60’s and 70’s as well as the womanist movement strongly contributed to the current breakdown of the black family, but thats another discussion for another day.)

29 05 2008
B4Prez

Gotta give it to Chris on this one. A female hard-ass gives me the same feeling that most black women get when they see an unnecessarily effeminate man.

29 05 2008
alex

I was completely prepared to hate this post, but I have to give it up to you. Well done.

29 05 2008
PrettyPiscesGirl

(You know, I’d even argue that the sexual revolution of the late 60’s and 70’s as well as the womanist movement strongly contributed to the current breakdown of the black family, but thats another discussion for another day.)

@ the champ…I read your post on your site yesterday, and while I didn’t have the time to respond, I quite agreed with your assertion. I tell my friends all the time…if you want a man that WANTS to be with you…let that man pursue YOU. If he can’t do the basic minimum to express interest, he won’t do the basic minimum to keep your relationship going.
I also agree with your statement above…the sexual “revolution” did US no good. If anything, it hastened the whole “baby mama/baby daddy” syndrome we see exhibited so rampantly on Maury Povich. RAD Feminism…while it has allowed SOME women to make a few cents/dollars more than they did 30/40 years ago…has also eroded the basic dynamics of relationships that WORKED for thousands of years.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

B4P, what is an unnecessarily effiminate man? And why do ignorant Black bitches get so man in the presence of fab?

Sorry, my hag game is strong. I don’t only snap for the kids, I fight for em.

Champ-BOOOOOOOOOOOO!

How could the feminist movement have helped to break down the Black family when BLACK WOMEN DIDN’T PARTICIPATE AT ALL????? We were too busy trying to liberate the Black man to liberate ourselves. And look at where that got us! Look at how y’all treat us! Look at the sorry state of gender politics in our comunity! We thought feminism was white woman’s territory, because white feminists were racists. And now look at us!

FBJHRFkfHwek,fhKWEHDFKfuckfuckfuck

ANGER LEVEL- OFF THE CHART!

29 05 2008
Digga

Seems to me that Feminism is just the extension of full human rights to women. Inherently, a good thing.

I dont think it made women become a certain way. It’s just that to get some of the powers that men have you’ve got to go about it in a way that has been seen as masculine, but now is just genderlessly aggressive or ambitious.

I dont see how opening up “genteel roles” for men can be as empowering as allowing women to fill any role they choose to.

But being a dude speaking on this subject, I’m probably wrong some where.

http://diggsdominion.com

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

The “sexual revolution” did not break down the Black family. Crack cocaine, the Vietnam War, white oppression, self-hatred, misogny and rap music brought down the Black family.

29 05 2008
TheChad

the sexual revolution didn’t break down the black family, it broke down family as a whole. Cocaine, war and self hatred are good examples of ruining factors of black family. White oppression i would disagree with because black families seemed to be at their strongest when white oppression was at its most rampant.

Like Chris said, the problem with black families is that women don’t NEED men and men don’t NEED women.

http://trialandera.wordpress.com

29 05 2008
Quiet Storm

Puff: “a woman who wants to stay home and take care of her kids is looked down upon more often than not, with “feminists” saying, “after all the strides that have been made for you, you just want to stay home and be a housewife?” bullshit on that. man might have made the train, plane and motherfucking electric bulb, but he never could have done it without a woman taking care of him. if the work women put into a household was measured as part of the economy’s output, maybe george bush wouldn’t be sweating so hard right now.”

On the news, they said that if being a housewife was an actual occupation, they would be making about $100,000/year. nuff said.

29 05 2008
Muse

My grandma has always said that my grandpa was the head of the household but she was the neck. The neck always turns the head in the direction it needs to go in. : )

As someone who has a deep and profound respect for my father who raised me and provided a great life, I have an issue with Feminism because most of the rhetoric I’ve read makes all men appear to be evil useless pigs whose sole existence is to bring down women. I believe that feminism is now seeking to elevate the status of women over men which contradicts the original goal of equality. Feminism has also contributed to anti-male discrimination in the areas of reproductive rights, child custody, alimony, and property division in divorce. As a Black woman, I cannot support any movement that involves bashing another gender, race, or religion.

In my opinion feminism as also contributed to the break down of the family structure which there has been in increase in teenage pregnancy, drug use, and crime. Studies show that children who grow up in fatherless homes tend to be in a lower economic class, more likely to get involved in illegal activity, and perform poorly in academics. Feminism devalues the man’s role in society and in the family structure. Although there are chauvinistic pigs out there, men in general are not evil and do make important contributions in this world.

There are biological differences between men and woman. The fact is men tend to be physically stronger than woman. Women have the burden of giving birth so their bodies require time to heal and be at home (unless you are super woman then here is a cookie for you). I also believe that there are lessons a father can teach that a mother cannot and vice versa. Feminism fails to acknowledge and respect these differences. We are not all created the same and the contributions from each gender provide balance in our society.

My hate for feminism runs deep, especially since the White Women’s feminist movement has contributed to the destruction of the Black community. Black women were tricked into joining this movement and as a result we became an ignored figure in all movements.

BTW Puff I cosign with your statement. I love the fact that I consider myself a balanced woman. I’m kicking ass in Corporate American but I can still cook like a pro, clean, and maintain my home. Women would be surprised how much power a home cooked meal has over a man. I’ve gotten my way after making some kick ass gumbo, fried chicken, Italian food, etc…

Every woman has a pussy, but not everyone has cooking skills. Something to think about while you are burning bras and getting abortions. In this day and age women don’t even have the power of sex anymore because folks are giving up left and right. Women have lost their allure which is why marriages are falling apart and men aren’t going out of their way to charm women.

29 05 2008
Monie

I don’t think you can have this conversation without discussing race. Feminism is more a White woman’s movement. White woman have only invited Black women to be apart of it when they needed big numbers of women to protest, vote, etc.

Even now we see the divide in the Feminist consciousness during the Democratic nomination race. Hillary Clinton has called her White Feminist friends to help her garner support from White women only.

For Black women she, Clinton, spat in our faces when she stood in a Black church with a man that has been nothing but a misogynist toward Black women, Bob Johnson.

This is just another example of White women not seeing their Black (and Brown) counterparts as worthy of receiving the benefits of the so-called Feminist Movement.

To them we are not truly women. We are just a poor imitation of real women, White women.

I am NOT a feminist, I am a womanist. I believe in equality for women, I believe in women having the right to choose their own destinies.

But if you call me a Feminist I’m going to get angry.

29 05 2008
shabooty

AS RICHARD PRIOR ONCE SAID….

WOMEN GOT HALF THE MONEY, AND ALLLL THE PUSSY….

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

29 05 2008
Ljones

@”feminazi” – hysterical. i think feminist fascists are misguided and confused. I am all for equal pay equal rights, AT THE SAME TIME, I am for a division inthe hosuehold. There are some things my husband is better at than I am -domestically. And since he is a mess in the kitchen- he isnt’ allowed in there except to refill my plate. I would GLADLY stay home and raise our child as opposed to working if that opportunity were to present itself. Our culture (negro) has ABSOLUTELY added to the degradation of women on all fronts, media, music and it needs to stop. Not because I am a woman but because I am a person. I don’t think al men suck or are out to “rule” women, but there are men out there that want to do exactly that. We must first love ourselves on a grand scale before we try to get any other body of people to embrace us as whole, important and worthy.

29 05 2008
C

I’m female, not mad and still wondering if you ever travel to Silicon Valley…

Figure 3 is hilarious and so very true.

29 05 2008
Cheekie

And of course, shabooty has summed it (women power) all up. LMAO

29 05 2008
the champ

“The “sexual revolution” did not break down the Black family. Crack cocaine, the Vietnam War, white oppression, self-hatred, misogny and rap music brought down the Black family.”

I didn’t say that it was solely responsible, but it did contribute.

This is actually an chicken/egg argument. You’re saying that those factors caused the black family to break down. I’m saying that the breakdown made us less immune to everything else, which, when you consider that some of the factors you cited (especially white oppression) have always been factors we’ve had to deal with as a people, makes more sense

I’ll always maintain that out-of-wedlock children is our community’s biggest issue right now, and that all of the other problems we face, from poverty to a a general feeling of apathy towards education, stem from that. I say that the sexual revolution of the 70’s contributed to this because that was the era when the negative stigma was removed from having babies out of wedlock, a phenomenon which has grown exponentially worse today

Now, I’m not saying that the onus falls squarely on women’s shoulders. No, far from that. But you can’t logicially argue against the fact that the “free-love” era and the feminism movement fucked us over.

(Btw, don’t boo me, Sister T. At least not until I’ve had lunch. )

29 05 2008
Muse

Black men and women are responsible for the breakdown of our communities and it starts with the family structure. I believe feminism poisoned the minds of young women which resulted in bad choices when it comes to our bodies. Black me are to blame for walking away from their responsiblities and not taking an active role in the lives of their offspring. Black women are to blame for opening up their legs and reproducing with suspect men. At the end of the day despite it all, we have a choice. The White people didn’t force black women to have multiple children out of wedlock and make poor choices in mate selection. White people didn’t tell parents not to take an active role in the lives of their children and hold off on having children until you were mentally, fiscally, and spiritually ready to handle the task for reasing another human being.

29 05 2008
Shine

Word up Muse and Puff. ‘Nuff said. I hate the racism and man-hating feminism and never subscribed. Womanism I learned is more in my mindset. I like gender roles at a minimum, prolly the way I was raised. You should know how to do everything you need to do but there’s some chivalry that should be expressed by both men and women. If you like to eat you better know how to cook. I know how to cut grass and clean gutters but I don’t do the muscle building work if there’s a man around. Chivalry on his part. Same thing is if man does work like that so I don’t have to then he gets a home cooked meal and dessert*. Chivalry on my part. Its like paying for services, respect that your probably stronger and I will respect that someone did something for me I didn’t want to do. Yet if I do enjoy cutting the grass, I go out and do it and damnit there better be some lemonade on a tray when I come indoors, man. Its all about the balance.

*This is my go to chivalry because I love to cook. Pound cakes and pies show up around me for no reason. I’m pissed that I have too many female friends who wont eat the damn desserts. That’s why I had to go make some more male friends. Otherwise I’d be 300lbs because being black, I can’t waste good food.

29 05 2008
Knatural

AHAHAHAHAH This just happened…
Co-worker: Why didn’t you change your name after marriage? Are you a feminist?

29 05 2008
B4Prez

@ST — An unnecessarily effeminate man is a man who decided that because he’s gay, he now needs to outdo all of the other unnecessarily effeminate men who act the way a “fabulous chik” acts. The only thing is, fly chiks don’t act the way he, or any of the others, does. I don’t know any women who go around calling each other “ms. honey” all day. I’m the furthest thing from a homophobe you’ll ever find, but ppl like “Gaymonn” (see crunktastical.net), are nothing but gay coons. They’re the gay Flavor Flav’s….if u ask me.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

I’m getting a little upset here, this is a subject that is virtually impossible for me to get heated over. I think that what a few folks here are doing is making this an emotional issue instead of a socio-political one. Furthermore, I believe that a lot of Black people have absorbed a lot of foolish propoganda about feminism that was propogated by the White man.

To sum up the words of Paolo Frere in “The Pedagogy Of The Oppressed”: the nature of the oppressed is not to end all oppression, but to BECOME the oppressor and to oppress as he has oppressed. I feel that the relationship of the Black man to the Black woman, in many ways, is a prime example (as is the relationship of the Black community to gay folks). We even see this in what you all call “radical feminists” in their relationship to men. And Muse, I do agree that there has been unfair bias towards men when it comes to reproductive rights, custody, and even alimony cases.

Black women get hung up on the term feminism and can’t see the forrest for the trees. Feminism is not one movement or one school of thought. If you have to call it womanism, fine, call it womanism. The textbook womanist is one who believes and works for equal rights for all people, with special attention to the needs of women of color. Nothing wrong with that. But I am NOT gonna let white woman own feminism! Cause NOBODY needs a feminst conciousness raising as bad as Black women and Black men!

True feminism/womanism DOES acknowledge the differences between women and men and allows each gender the space to define their own identity and peacefully co-exist and have a healthy inter-dependent relationship. To take only the Gloria Steinem/Geraldine Ferraro school of feminism and say that it represents feminism-as-a-whole is like saying that ALL Civil Rights leaders believe in the methods of Dr. King or that ALL Black militants follow the Black Panthers Ten Point Program

I advise you all to read bell hooks’ “Feminism Is For Everbody!”, Michele Wallace’s “Black Macho And The Myth Of The Superwoman” and other things about race and feminism other than Wikipedia.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

B4P- But who the hell are YOU to say that these men are unneccesarily effeminate? What if someone said you were unneccesarily masculine? I think Andre J and B. Scott and all my other girlz are just doing them. Do you.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Thank. You. Shabooty.

The Chad, if the problem is that women don’t NEED men and vice versa, wouldn’t this break down ALL families and not just black families?

Not having done a formal study on this, I venture to say that the problems in the black family started way before the sexual resolution, crack cocaine, or rap music (mad at you Sister T, but I understand) -though these things certainly haven’t helped. During slavery, families were broken up on a white man’s whim. You would wake up one morning and by 2pm, you child or your “husband” (not legally married) would be sold away to someone who just so happened to be driving by. Black women learned to “cope” (I disagree that we don’t NEED them -see Jill Scott’s I Need You) without a man out simply b/c we had no choice. Also, in seeing how our men were treated, we became overly protective of them which is why we tend to raise our daughters and cripple (in the name of “protecting”) our sons which ultimately leads to the ugly statistics that I posted in yesterday’s comments. But again, I haven’t done a formal study on this.

Damn! I said I was gonna be completely focused on work today and now I’ve been roped into this conversation. I wish my job would block this damn site!

29 05 2008
Anonymiss

Believe it or not, there is a segment of the feminist population that don’t want to be men. They’re actually resentful towards the so-called feminazis who’ve got a skewed view of women’s lib. Those “feminazis” are still adhering to the idea that freedoms of thought and choice, assertiveness, and being accomplished are masculine. That is anti-feminism.

Feminism is about a woman having the right to choose whatever suits her agenda and no one else’s. So even a housewife can be a feminist if that is the road that she chose to take. Feminism = choice. Anything else = bullshit.

I appreciate the Coyon matriarchal concept. It’s very pro-family.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

A question for my fellas… In terms of “gender roles,” what kind of woman are you looking for (or have you found)? Stay at home mom? Career driven? One who takes care of everything historically/traditionally known as “women’s work”? Equal partner, no gender roles? I’m curious.

29 05 2008
shabooty

I respect women’s lib by letting them get their mace off.

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

Let’s get one thing straight. Women DO NOT want to be treated as equals! The want to be paid like men, and treated as women. When men begin to treat women as equals, we(men) get sent to sensitivity training. The End!

29 05 2008
Muse

Yonnie3K I completely understand the historical context as to why the Black Family unit is the way it is. BUT now we do have basic rights that enable us to make certain choices. WE don’t have to wake up at 2am to find that our husbands have been sold to another plantation or being lynched. We don’t have to have a bunch of babies out of wedlock that we cannot take care of. We don’t have to be complacent and accept mediocrity. Black people have choices now. How are we going to be better equipped to fight inequality and tell society how to treat us if we can’t even respect ourselves? Before the revolution starts, folks need to take care of what is going on in their own homes. Women do have a lot of power in determining the direction of the Black community. We don’t have to get knocked up by some loser thug who can’t even read. We don’t have to turn to selling our bodies or disrespecting ourselves. We can get an education and continue to improve our socio economic standing. Our little girls don’t have to grow up thinking that the only way to win a man’s affection is by sleeping with him. We can make sure that our little boys grow up to be productive young men by marrying quality males who will be proactive and raising the children with strong value systems.

Sorry, I’m very passionate about this subject. So many of our ancestors died so we can have these discussions and make good life choices.

29 05 2008
Omar

I think there is a difference from the political movement of gaining equal rights for woman and equal employment, which is unequivocally a good thing, and social influences of some feminists. The response to the social influences are varied, but nothing can be taken away from the political aspect of it. It is up to people to not take things to an extreme, never doing anything kind for a woman is just as extreme as some women hating all men.

I don’t count the sexual revolution as completely feminist, it can’t be, the notion that “if you drop the panties it will liberate you” sounds like someone was running game and it finally worked.

29 05 2008
Knatural

Voice of Reason: marry me.

29 05 2008
B4Prez

@ST — I do me, and they can feel free to keep doing them. But I ask you this, how popular would B. Scott and Andre be without all of the femininity? That’s exactly why ppl give them the time of day, and why they in turn go over the top for everyone. If B. Scott were a typical, laid-back guy, who happened to be gay, he would lose half of hit daily hits, because then, his core audience of black women would be over him. But because he’s the stereotypical gay queen/hair dresser/stylist character, you’ll love him….if u ask me.

29 05 2008
Muse

Voice of Reason you have a great point. You can’t be a super feminazi but then get mad when a man doesn’t want to open the door for you or pay for dinner. There needs to be a happy balance. Each woman and needs to decide what kind of life she wants, what kind of man she wants to be with, and make the appropriate decisions from there. If a woman decides to be a homemaker, then get with a man who supports that lifestyle. Also note that if a woman does decide to stay at home, there are expectations of running the household, not sitting on your ass watching Oprah and Soap Operas. Now men if you want an independent woman who bring in the cheddar, you need to realize that it is very difficult to work 70+ hrs a week and have the burden of doing all the cooking, cleaning, and childrearing.

29 05 2008
Omar

Oh yeah Willie Lynch fucced up the black family 200 years ago, we are at a slow climb and rappers aren’t helping but hey the industry is controlled by Willie Lynch’s great great grandchildren.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Amen Omar. I don’t want to be treated like a man. I want FREEDOM to make my own choices and not have limitations put on me b/c I am a woman and I want EQUALITY (equal pay for equal work, right to vote, etc.). However, I definitely want to be treated like a woman. I am completely aware that these can at times be at conflict with one another (how you wanna be treated as an equal, but you want me to open your car door?).

As Chris would say, take it.

29 05 2008
Anonymiss

Omar: I don’t count the sexual revolution as completely feminist, it can’t be, the notion that “if you drop the panties it will liberate you” sounds like someone was running game and it finally worked.

Thank you. I hate how female promiscuity is blamed on feminism. It doesn’t make sense when you consider the “free-spirited” behavior of the Greeks in their dominant, pre-religion years.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Willie Lynch is a myth – though the contents of the letter are true.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Sorry. That wasn’t Omar. That was The Voice of Reason. Amen TVOR.

29 05 2008
puff

@ anonymiss – i agree with you that female promiscuity should not be blamed on feminism – rather, some women have it to thank for sexual liberties (albeit it’s mainly women like those on SATC – sorry to bring it up – who enjoy these liberties without being labelled a whore).
however, on the historical point: only men in Ancient Greece had sexual liberty. sex with women was seen as a necessary evil for procreation purposes only, and the most pleasurable and pure form of sex was that between men – specifically that between older men and boys. not so much “free-spirited” as creepy. women weren’t sexually free, and love between two women wasn’t barely taken into consideration. basically, the ancient greeks aren’t the greatest example of a sexually free society for women, is what i’m trying to say.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

B4P- What? Would people like me if I weren’t smart or quirky? We like them for who they are. Your arguement needs work. You just sound like a homophobe.

29 05 2008

We had strong leaders leading us, we had historical break throughs. I do and will always believe that what effected our people was what happened at home and the damage that was done to out ancestors due to racism.

Our people we brought here from a totally different society, locked down and abused as slaves. Our women were raped, our children raped and beaten, our men humiliated, etc. Then we were free to live on our own, however be told that we weren’t good enough from the start and that we need to be separate from the other races into a world (that we built) we knew nothing about. Our people were broken the only thing we had was religion, nothing else.

No matter how strong you can pretend to be. Seeing your family and neighbors hanging from trees, your daughters being raped, your family being hosed by the men who are supposed to protect and serve you. Can you imagine feeling like you are a fish placed in a cage with cats? As a whole our people felt like they didn’t belong and had no place to go. Some were stonger than others and pushed forward. Some chose to fight to get an education and make a life for their kids, instead of shooting up and smoking crack because they wanted to block the struggle. Those who pushed forward are our fellow EBP. Who are strong on the outside, yet on the inside they know what we been through and there is pain and that to the white man they are still niggers and “should be assasinated” no matter how educated, and qualified you are (obama).

The parents who were weak raised weak children and the cycle continued.
Black women were always from the very beginning WORTHLESS! Their self esteem…NON EXSISTENT!!!! Then the “creole”/ master’s baby was born and the “exotic” bitch grew didn’t have to pick no damn cotton, our men admired her and desired this new creature rather than the “regular women” they been had. Black women were no longer desired. They were never loved, never knew what it was like to be loved. Or how to show love other then beating the shit out of their children.

Then men say “Black women are IMPOSSIBLE” well I fucking wonder why, our black men don’t even cherish us or desire us. Black women have been through HELL AND BACK. Then the parents name then SHASHANIQUA, DESIRE, LALA ;), OR NAQUAWNDA ALAZAY, wtf. So this feminist shit started with the white woman, who could no longer have bessie may and her mut child clean her floors… the bitch got bored and said she ain’t will not be dling “nigger chores” or silly things like raise her children, she can go to work like her husband. Or even run for fucking president (wink).

(end of rant)

29 05 2008

ain’t will not be doing “nigger chores” or silly things like raise her children, she can go to work like her husband. Or even run for fucking president (wink).

29 05 2008

excuse the 100 errors I type faster than a speeding bullet

29 05 2008
shabooty

are you saying you type like a MAN?
(:

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Where is Admiral Furious these days?

29 05 2008
shabooty

he’s busy watching Indiana Jones 3 over and over again -as he’s a big fan.
🙂

jk he hates G. Lucas.

29 05 2008
Knatural

he’s scared of the e-hoes.

29 05 2008
B4Prez

@ST — I swear to you I’m not a homophobe. I just think the same way many blacks are guilty of fulfilling certain stereotypes, extremely effeminite men do the same thing- fulfill tereotypes. I have a friend who’s gay and he once said, with the gay community being so ostracized, you will often see guys who weren’t even effeminite become effeminite simply because that’s how all of the people in the community who supported them were. I’m not knocking them; I know that with some people it’s simply who they are. But the logic of how you get suburban guys with professional parents trying to emulate ‘hoodrat’ life because they’re young black males, is the same thing you often find with these young guys who think they’re supposed to act a certain way because they’re gay. When is the last time you saw a gay guy on tv who wasn’t a stereotypical queen? Once again, I’m not knocking them for their choices, I’m just saying that it is what it is. Like I said, its just…if u ask me.

29 05 2008
Knatural

B4Prez, I understand. It’s a caricature of female behavior. This was brought up in the Homophobes post. It is tantamount to suburbanites emulating ‘hoodrat’ behavior. I’m sure there are some guys that truly identify with femininity, but sometimes it’s too over-the-top for me.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Ne, one of the greatest examples of the legacy of White oppression is your adversion to feminism.

B4P- The same way some men REALLY DO act like those ‘nigga stereotypes’ on TV, there are flaaaaming queens.

29 05 2008
Esquire

Whew! You all said a lot. Many of you said nothing. My turn.

I dont know the def. of a real feminist. I am probably politically incorrect on my assumptions of them too.

All I know is I want to slap every female who gets on her high horse talking about she dont need a man. “Im independent” “My child dont need no daddy”
These are truly ignorant women.

I make three times as much as my husband. We pool our money together, but its no secret that if he quit working tomorrow, we wouldnt miss his contribution. I keep our house clean. I help raise our children. I come home and cook. I can change a tire. I put together the crib, not him. I guess from a feminist point of view, I dont “need” him.

But I need him to love and support me emotionally. I need him to kill the bugs. I need him to show my daughter how a man is supposed to love her. I need him to tell me my boss is a moron. I need him to take out the stankin trash. We are partners and I just need him there.

You may not feel as though you “need” a man. No, you can survive on your own. To me saying you dont need a man is like saying you dont need tampons/pads. Sure, you can get along just find without them, but damn damn damn why would you want to? It sooo much harder, inconvenient, and stressful. Why would you CHOOSE to live life without a partner?

My husband is not my entire world but he sure is a big part. We’re a team. And as a successful woman in a mle dominated profession, Im not ashamed to admit that.

29 05 2008
Muse

Nicely Said Esquire. As a married woman you wanna give some of us single sistas some tips? How did you know that he was the “one?”

29 05 2008
Ethel

As another woman from Silicon Valley, I find this post to be pretty accurate and the comments to be very interesting/educational.

I believe women’s lib has given women more opportunities in the workplace but it also seems it has succeeded in infantalizing men at home. Women seem to be so busy proving they don’t need men that the men don’t feel inclined to step up and help out [see figure 3].

For example, I used to work with a gal who complained that although she dropped off and picked up the dog and baby from daycare, cleaned the house, cooked all the time and paid the bills, all her husband could do was go to work and come home and play video games. I asked her why she didn’t let him take on some of the chores like dropping the dog and kid off and picking them up, thinking how hard is that to screw up? She said, “Oh I couldn’t do that…he wouldn’t do it right.” ???!! I heard later that they are now getting a divorce and I’m sure this same woman will bitch and moan about being alone, only to attract another man to her that she can’t appreciate.

I think ‘Voice of Reason’ is very accurate. And I think women need to be aware when they are painting themselves into a corner.

29 05 2008
Shine

Cheetarah, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Thunder e-hoes. We should get our own saturday morning cartoon.

29 05 2008
Shine

Conoy Chris and the Thunder e-Hoes!

It would be the worst cartoon ever

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

The Voice of Reason (17:49:11) :

Let’s get one thing straight. Women DO NOT want to be treated as equals! The want to be paid like men, and treated as women. When men begin to treat women as equals, we(men) get sent to sensitivity training. The End!

This is sophomoric logic at best. I appreciate that you feel like women want some of the “benefits” of being a male, without the treatment. But does the predelection to treat people like/be treated like a piece of shit make men worthy of higher salaries? An INTELLIGENT feminist (regardless of gender) realizes that women and men are different, yet equal. As Chris mentioned earlier-we can work through checks and balances. I am a typical (or stereotypical, if you will) woman, in that I am a nurturer, I’m sensitive, I wear girly things and smell nice. But if I do the same job as a man, then I expect the same fucking salary. I expect the same shot at a job that a man can get if I am qualified. I expected to be treated as a human being and with fairness. I maintain that I am very different than most men, but I am no less of a person.

Black women will always be the disrespected, hated and devalued entity that we are now, because we refuse to pick the right battles. That “I don’t need a man” shit is retarted, but I also believe that we need to find some solidarity as Black women.

29 05 2008
Esquire

Muse,
I was very comfortable with him. I mean like we have pooting contests. He comes from a small country town and was taught to open doors, stand up when a woman walks in the room, etc. I was not used to that. Plus he has NO game. which made him genuine.
BTW: I did not get married until my late 20s. I dont know how old you are but a lot of young black women, just give up hope. Im confused because they are like 23!!! talking bout there are no men. At 23 you should be wylin out.

29 05 2008
london

Esquire has done said it all…
My mother and father are still married after nearly 43 years..
They fight like puss and dog but love like rabbits… (ugh)
My father does his… my mother does hers..
If my father does not take my mother’s car to the mechanic.. it is not going..
If my mother does not shop for food.. lord help me when I go round on a Sunday…
My father figuratively hands over his salary to my mother and she gives him spending money..
My father never goes to the cash point..
If my mother goes away on holiday she leaves cold hard cash for him..
I fear for them should one of them die..
& more so for my father… he has no clue.. I know I will be going to do the grocery shopping and doing his washing…
My mother has it down.. yet is seen as the weaker one…
We women coming up do not know they are born quite frankly…

29 05 2008
london

Last sentence should read..
‘do not know we are born…’

29 05 2008
B4Prez

@KNatural — Exactly!

@ST — Yeah, ur right. I know that there are flaaaamers who simply are who they are, and aren’t faking ANYTHING! I was just making the correlation that a lot of times it’s learned, and not innate; and that gay doesn’t necessarily equal feminine.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Sister T, I think you totally misunderstood TVOR. What he’s saying is that we want equality when it comes to pay and our civil liberties (for example, the right to vote) and things like that – BUT that we don’t want to be treated like men as in we don’t want to hear dirty and crass jokes in the office place, we want men (some of us anyways, me for instance) to open car doors, pay for the first date, kill the bugs (and in my case take out the trash and mow the lawn), and the like. If they treated us the same way they treated other MEN, they wouldn’t do these things for us.

29 05 2008
Educated NSU Demon

Some women are the biggest pain in the ass, simply because they like to have their cake and eat it to. Women want to be able have social equality with men, yet they feel they men HAVE to be practicing chivalry, and they feel they can slap men around, but once a man hits a woman back in self defense, all is wrong with the world. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an advocate of men hitting women (hell, I’m not an advocate of ANYONE hitting ANYONE…since as adults, we should be able to handle our issues without coming to blows, but I digress), and I have no problem with chivalry. I just feel like, any woman who TRULY wants social equality shouldn’t REQUIRE chivalry from a man (now if the man is simply more than happy to treat her like a queen, then that’s perfectly fine), and they shouldn’t hit a man without expecting to be hit back. Just my 2 cents on the issue of gender equality.

This doesn’t apply to ALL women, of course.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

NSU Demon ~ I’m here for you if you need to talk. I have a 1-800 number for you. Domestic violence is never okay.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Yonnie3k (19:37:41) :

NSU Demon ~ I’m here for you if you need to talk. I have a 1-800 number for you. Domestic violence is never okay.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Seriously money, it DOES sound like you may have a little problemo.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

Yonnie- THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE! Why should we not have equal pay and civil liberties because we want chivalry? Again, the phrase of the day is CHECKS AND BALANCES! We just have to all be doing our share.

Now, broads who want you to pay on dates all the time should be bringing their something to the table too. The same way if I always cook and my man and I both work, then he needs to clean. We have to share and work together. But I am gonna be dammed before I let a man be “the head of the household” or wear the figurative pants in the relationship. GTFOH with that.

29 05 2008
shabooty

my only rule is its fucked up to make the guy pay on dates all the time, yet the chick doesn’t wanna spend money on her labiaplasty…

sheesh.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

Sister T – nobody said that we SHOULDN’T have equal civil liberties and chivalry. If you read it, that’s EXACTLY what I’m saying – I want both. We (me and TVOH ~ sorry to speak for you TVOH) are just saying don’t call it equality or being treated equal or the same b/c its not.

Its like that quote from Animal Farm – “All animals are created equal; but some are more equal than others.”

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

I said pay for the FIRST date, not pay all the time.

29 05 2008
dave

man some of these comments are effed, almost too much going on to comment.

but, key points:

@ST, you speak so true. keep it up.

feminism, as other folks have said, has its exclusive and inclusive crowds, much like most movements. the most inclusive folks just say that being a feminist is believing that women deserve the same respect and opportunity as men. full stop. and anyone who disagrees with that, in my book, isn’t worth talking to.

a lot of black/POC folks don’t totally sign on to feminism even if they agree with that idea because its hard to get fired up about gender injustice when you’ve got other kinds of bigotry going on, which is a reason but not an excuse. most “multi-ethnic feminism” looks at ways that being the “other” (i.e. not a straight white middle class man) in a way that pays appropriate attention to folks who are multiple kinds of “other”

another thing i like to remember is that whenever people say “woman are like … ” or “men always …” is that almost every real study i’ve read that actually looked at things right showed that there’s always a greater variance WITHIN a group than there is BETWEEN groups …

$0.02 …

29 05 2008
maya

I love my Soul Sister.

Also, NSU, if it doesn’t apply to all women, then who does it apply to? I’m lost.

Femininism remains an adverse topic for black women because of the way the feminist movement was spearheaded by white women in the 60s and 70s. It was not all-inclusive. However, once you broaden your scope beyond the burning bra bullshit, and really dig into it (bell hooks is a friend in my head, as is Audre Lorde) there’s a lot there. Black women have always been feminists – we didn’t have the luxury of sitting back.

29 05 2008
Say it isn't so

@London,@Esquire…Bravo (hands clapping) Bravo…

29 05 2008
Knatural

“Women want to be able have social equality with men, yet they feel they men HAVE to be practicing chivalry, and they feel they can slap men around, but once a man hits a woman back in self defense, all is wrong with the world.”-Educated NSU Demon
Am I the only one who kinda understands where he’s coming from on this. A lot of women will bark, belittle, and physically antagonize a man, hit him, and if he snaps back, they’re shocked. I’m not advocating violence, by any means, but if I hauled off and struck my mate with malice – especially in the face – I might get hit back.

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

@Yonnie3K: Yes, that’s what I was saying. Thank you for comprehending my point.

@ SistaToldja: I want to make it known that as a man I have no issues whatsoever with a woman earning a living for herself, what I resent is a woman telling me what my role as a man is or should be, I’m sure the same can be said of women being told what their roles as a woman is or should be, I understand the argument and the counterargument. My point is this, what we have are these “new millenium women, that want traditional types of marriages. They want a man to pay all of the bills, and pretty much take care of a woman completely while she can make just as much money if not more, and contribute nothing to a household. It’s a shame that women nowadays can’t even cook something as simple as Hamburger Helper, but I digress. Women need to understand a simple fundamental fact, if you want a traditional marriage, then there are certain traditional roles that were assigned to both men & women during that period of time: Men took care of everything in & around the home, and it was a woman’s job to take care of the man. So it was fair for a man to expect a hot meal, a clean home, and any of his desires to be satisfied at the drop of a hat if he was the sole provider of said household. What we have now, is a system that is out of balance. Women are better educated, are in better paying jobs, etc, and that is absolutely fine, but some women today are on a narcissistic, ego-driven power trip. What I mean is this, try telling a woman, or assert your dominant role as God commanded it in the institution of marriage in a house where a woman makes more than you. Women nowadays aint havin’ it, and for perfectly good reason. Women have had to assume to role of mother, father, protector, & provider due to the absence of men wanting to stand up and be responsible, the number of single-parent homes illustrates that point. So, when a woman enters into a marriage, where she is by God’s commandment, a helpmate or in a subservient role, it’s harder for women to take a step back and let a man assume that role, especially when a woman has been more than holding her own on her own.

Listen women, I understand that men are not men like they should be, and I know it’s frustrating for you, but what a lot of you have to guard against is always challenging him as a man, throwing your higher salary or education in his face. What women need to try and understand is that a lot of men come from homes where a father was not present, so he may not have had a viable example of what a real man is or what a real man is suppose to do, so he wings it. Women need to be aware of that, and just be there to support and encourage him, because he’s going to make mistakes. Now women I’m not saying you take a backseat and let monkey-assed behavior go unchecked, but for the sake of this argument, I’ll just hope that you understand the point I’m attempting to make. What men need to try understand is subservient does not men less than, or a slave. A woman is 2nd only to God, yet a lot of us feel that women today are not the women that we have become accustomed to, and you’re right, but times change, and people change. In today’s economy it would be extremely hard to support an entire household on a single income, so men need not feel threatened if their woman is making more than him, just be the man that God commanded in your home, and a woman has no choice but to recognize and respect that.

There’s a lot more that I can say, but I just wanted to add my .57( due to the rising cost of gas, I had to increase the cost of my .02)

29 05 2008
Shine

Yea, the problem I have with that hitting back thing is that often men are stronger and so its not equivalent. Its like if a child struck you and you guys got in a fistfight. And I worry because in communities of color it seems that DV is accepted if ‘a woman had it coming’. Or worse if a woman fights back then its not domestic violence b.c. the man got hurt too. Yea, he has scratches all up and down his face and can’t go to work looking like that but she has a broken leg. Thats not equivalent and that is wrong. but yes many women are abusive to men because they think the man wont hit them back, and it is wrong, but is hitting them back the answer? I mean I feel if a hands been raised against someone once, that’s it. There is no twice, that person needs to be gone.

29 05 2008
Muse

Educated NSU Demon I believe if a woman is bold enough to hit a man, he has EVERY right to hit her back. I don’t play that double standard BS when it comes to physical violence. Everyone needs to be respectful and not resort to violence. A man should have the right to defend himself and if that includes punching a broad inflicting violence on him in the face then so be it.

29 05 2008
Muse

Esquire, I just turned 26 four days ago. I’m not tripping about finding a mate but at the same time I’m dating gets old for me. A lot of my friends are starting to get married. I’m going to 8 weddings between 08′ and 09′ LOL, I’m also annoyed because now my family is trying to hook me up with various young men they meet through their friends and family which is kind of a pain. I guess I should be grateful.

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

Haven’t read the comments yet but Figure 3 is my life.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3k

The Voice of Reason (20:13:31): My point is this, what we have are these “new millenium women, that want traditional types of marriages. They want a man to pay all of the bills, and pretty much take care of a woman completely while she can make just as much money if not more, and contribute nothing to a household. It’s a shame that women nowadays can’t even cook something as simple as Hamburger Helper

I think you need to broaden your social circles. I don’t know any of these women. Are you married? DEAD at $0.57

Quck tutorial: can someone tell me how to italicize stuff?

29 05 2008
Muse

The Voice of Reason you do have a good point so how do you address the issue where the woman brings just as much income to the household and works just as many hours as the man, yet the man expects her to still cook, clean, fuck, etc after working 70+ hrs a week? Someone has to give…

I also want to note that I’ve dated guys who grew up with their fathers and guys who didn’t. Interestingly enough the men who had fathers or strong male role models in their lives growing up treated me a lot better than the guys who did not.

As for me, since I grew up with my father and had strong male rolemodels in my life, I have a low tolerance for BS when it comes to dating. I really do believe that is the result of my pops setting the standards pretty high for me. My mom is great and all but my dad gave me the knowledge about how men act and how I need to approach certain dating situations.

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

Yonnie3K: LOL. I’m just saying that there are some women that expect that type of treatment, but I was trying to be careful and not generalize.; However, I do know that there are some women that harbor that point of view, and that’s fine, if they can find a sucker, I mean a man who will adhere to that, then God help him. I just know that I dont want any able bodied person completely dependent on me. If you take a man’s money, then you take his advice. All I’m saying that if my fiancee wants to stay at home and not work, then that’s fine, luckily I’m blessed with a salary to allow it, but I think it’s only fair that she knows what I expect if she chooses not to work. I’m not married yet, April 18, 2009. http://www.hollyandperry.com

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

I still haven’t read all the comments, so sorry if I repeat folks. The most BS story in the news lately is that men should partake equally in child rearing, cooking and cleaning. My mom did not one bit of mortgage paying, car repair, home repair so why should my dad pick up the damn mop? Their arrangement was perfectly fair. What people need to realize is that men and women are different. Men are better at some things, women are better at some things – neither is inferior or superior to the other. *goes back to read comments*

29 05 2008
Muse

The Voice of Reason congrats on your wedding. Send a skee wee to your fiancee for me LOL.

You guys look lovely.

29 05 2008
london

nsu has a point about the hitting situation…
i grew up with 3 brothers..
my father always told me do not fight with them because eventually and however wrongly they will hit me back..
up until i was 13 i could beat the hell out of my 2 youngest brothers then one day … bam..one of my brother’s just hit me.. i flew across the room..
not the youngest – that would be total shame..
my father just said to me ‘ i told you so…’from then on in i didn’t fight them …i knew..
i just became more subtle and twisted in my attacks but that is another post eh chris..
women and young girls today think they can boldly hit a man or anyone for that matter and never be hit back..
they are the untouchables..
what i say is.. why step in the lion’s cage…

my friend’s little boy was cornered and teased, kicked and punched mercilessly by a group of older girls.. some nasty little bad breed heifers…
he pushed one of them to get away.. the little puppybitch fell over and bawled..
the school had my friend to the school…
all the while he was telling the teachers how he was cornered by the gang all they said was you should not put your hands on a girl…
you have got to be kidding me…
what would you say to your son? what could you say without fucking up his self esteem?

i am all for men treating women with the dignity and respect as equals they deserve… but don’t push it women.. you are not built equally.. just accept it
as a grown woman in a domestic situation.. with a grown ass man…
just don’t do it women.. i have no sympathy for any woman who beats on her man and catches hell just as i have no sympathy the other way around…
it’s unfortunate that women come off worse in either situation…
everyone should just keep their hands to themselves… full stop..

i am audi… footie to watch…
oh and bad luck last night you lot…
you would not have scored given another week to play…
you were rubbish..

*to the tune of amazing grace and at the top of our voices….* a terrace favourite…
two nil.. two nil.. two nil.. two nil
two nil.. two nil..two nil
two nil.. two nil ..two nil… two nil..
two nil.. two nil… two nil…
not imaginative but very powerful…

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

@Muse: That’s easy, if you have a wife that’s grinding just as hard as you, then you compromise, whoever get’s home first is responsible for dinner. I know that when you include children into the equation, then it can complicate things, but lets just assume this is in the absence of children, for a family working towards starting a family. As far as house chores go, divide them, have trash, dishes, etc nights. One person is responsible for the trash, the other for the dishes, and clean as you go, and pick up after yourself. When you get out of there shower, just spray it down, so when the weekend comes around, you’re not having to turn the house upside down trying to clean it, and devote the entire day to cleaning. For me, I’m up everyday at 6, so on Sat I’m at the barbershop by 7, but I start a load of clothes before I leave as well as the dishwasher, so when I get home, all I have to do is vacuum and fold my clothes, I’m usually done by 9. It’s not that hard, people have a tendancy to make things harder than they have to be.

29 05 2008
Shine

TVOR there’s something that is really turning me off about your wording. The first comment bugged me because you said equality as if being closer to a man was equal instead of perhaps thinking that men should be closer to women to create a balance as equality. But that was semantics and I was down with your overall point that women should be treated as women but equal as human beings… blah blah blah the topic has been addressed. However this last statement is just driving me crazy, maybe its the buzzwords but your statement is driving me a little crazy. I think I feel you on what you’re saying but can you explain
1″assert your dominant role as God commanded it in the institution of marriage”
2″So, when a woman enters into a marriage, where she is by God’s commandment, a helpmate or in a subservient role, it’s harder for women to take a step back and let a man assume that role, especially when a woman has been more than holding her own on her own” I don’t think helpmate and subservient are synonymous. And I don’t get down for dominance/subservience in marriage as a whole. Its too big. There are some stituations (like Chris explained) where a woman may be dominant(dealing with the field, handling money, whatever) in this role or a man dominant in that role (bugs squashing, war, yardwork, whatever) but overall I don’t buy it. And I think the dominance/subserviance is subjective to each relationship, peoples strengths and weaknesses or likes and dislikes. So just an explanation please cuz I don’t think I get you and don’t want to put you on my hitlist prematurely. Especially because of this
3 “What men need to try understand is subservient does not men less than, or a slave. A woman is 2nd only to God, yet a lot of us feel that women today are not the women that we have become accustomed to, and you’re right, but times change, and people change.”

I once had a Witness explain to me about a woman being secondary in her household and how her sons were getting too big for their britches because they saw her as a woman and she couldn’t fault them but had to slap the shit out of them because she was still their mother. She tried to explain that a woman was like your right hand, useful, necessary and you should treat it with respect because its a part of your body. But I had to say at the end of the day you don’t respect your right hand as an independent mind with desires and shit of its own. Its like keeping a pet, yea, take care of them but you don’t respect the fact that it has decision making capacity and as an equal to you. You consider it in your decisions but you don’t value its opinions. Because its less than human, and that’s where my problem comes in. At the end of the day its still all about you and if push comes to shove you are making the decisions etc etc. Its the difference between pacifying me and respecting me on the same level as you. At the end of the day, the mindset is that I’m not quite equal to you and need to be taken care of like a child. And this is not an issue of feminism/womanism whatever because I’ve seen many women treat men like this as well as men treat women like this.

29 05 2008
Dustin

If only men could sit on the governing council and their word was final in the household, doesn’t that mean they had all the power? Who controlled (“checked”) the Clan Mother? Did she really have unilateral power to have any man who messed up killed?

Forgive my ignorance, but it just seems like a system of men saying “we let you have this so you can think you have power, but we still run sh*t.”

*Flinch*

Please dont’ attack me. I just don’t think I understand.

29 05 2008
Dustin

A close parentheses always comes out as a wink.

29 05 2008
Muse

The Voice of Reason I was just asking because there are some men who do feel that even though their wife brings in just as much income and works more hours, she should to all the cleaning and cooking which isn’t fair. I grew up with a dad who cooked almost every night so I have the expectation that a man cooks or least learns how to do so.

29 05 2008
Shine

Ok I’ve seen the rest of your stuff TVOR. I think we’re on the same page, I just had some arguements with people using some of the same buzzwords you were dropping and its was making me have flashbacks. You are not on my hitlist:

And for who ever asked beore whatever you want to italicize typ and after it you have to type Except without the spaces. I put them in hoping it wont actually read it as code.

29 05 2008
Shine

Damnit! didnt work you have to type the less than sign () in front of the phrase you want to italicize. Then you have to do the same thing at the end Except you have to put a backslash (/) in front of the i to show you ended the italics. (/i)

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

I’m mad that the best points on this post were made by shabooty. That Richard Pryor quote belongs on money instead of “In God We Trust”

29 05 2008
Shine

Dustin, damn you said it more clearly than I could choke out today. thats what I meant with the whole God-given role of men thingie I was expounding on earlier. False sense of power hidden in the form of protection even though the man still runs shit. And that women should be grateful for being treated like a queen and let the man run shit. I don’t think those are mutually exclusive. But you do have to wary of assholes on either side of the royal treatment equation.

29 05 2008
Angry IV

The feminists came out in force on the comments here. I think this post breaks the record for most amount of ridiculously lengthy comments ever on a blog.

29 05 2008
moni

I totally agree with this post (and all others, actually). As a woman who does consider herself to be a feminist, I see a lot of other young woman in my age range ( I am 21) say what they will not do for a man, not realizing that they are probably relegating themselves to spending their lives all alone (it is a very cold world). They are so stuck on the need to feel empowered for some unknown reason. They refuse to cook, clean , or be secondary to any man EVER!!!! These women have a serious misunderstanding of what it means to be a woman. Being born a woman is empowering all by itself. A MAN wants a REAL WOMAN. That means being someone who knows how to take care of a home so he can go out in the world and work to make that money to keep the family in the home.
Got off the point, but yeah Chris, I totally agree with your views on feminism. The lack of chivalry is so sad. I am a woman who loves the feeling of having a man open doors for me and pull out my chair and be loving and gentle with me just as much as I love the look of satisfaction on a mans face after he eats a hot meal that I know I prepared or how relaxed he is when coming home after a long day to a home that is clean and peaceful. I believe that I, as an individual, am capable of having the total package in every aspect of my life (work, school, friends, romantic life). I am very satisfied and think because I strive to be the best WOMAN I could possibly be I am happy and lack the dissatisfied attitude towards life and my existence that I notice in other women my age.

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

@ Shine: Not problem, I’ll be happy to try and succinctly explain and address each of your concerns.

1. ″assert your dominant role as God commanded it in the institution of marriage”
What I mean by this is that in the institution of marriage, the man is the authority, that is not to say he is a woman’s boss, but he is responsible for his family. A man should consult with his wife, but at the same time, the final decision lies with the man. No man should ever make a decision for the welfare of his family without first consulting with his family; however, the final decision rests with him as the authority/head of household.

2. ″So, when a woman enters into a marriage, where she is by God’s commandment, a helpmate or in a subservient role, it’s harder for women to take a step back and let a man assume that role, especially when a woman has been more than holding her own on her own”
What I mean here is simple, let me explain in another way. Say for example, you spent 15 years at a company, and were extremely successful at making the company profitable, but when it comes promotion time, you get overlooked for some hot young rookie fresh out of Harvard’s MBA School? How hard would you find it not to resent or harbor some sort of feeling of jealousy/resentment when you know for a fact that you’re just as qualified for the position and have been running the department for quite some time? Now, I’m not saying that marriages should be run like corporations, but there are some very subtle similarities. In marriage, it is not a woman’s place to be the head. That’s not what God intended for you as a woman, but due to a change in dynamic, women have had to assume that role, and some have done extremely well, but please understand, that in the institution of marriage, that is not your natural position, in the corporate world you just got screwed over. =)

29 05 2008
Dustin

“The problem with feminism is the same as the problem with the rest of the world: white women.” – C.C.

29 05 2008
Sister Toldja

TVOR-“They want a man to pay all of the bills, and pretty much take care of a woman completely while she can make just as much money if not more, and contribute nothing to a household. It’s a shame that women nowadays can’t even cook something as simple as Hamburger Helper, but I digress.”

What ignorant sub-population are you addressing? I understand the concept of if you have traditional wants, you have to have traditional qualities and traditional behavior….but it sounds like your gripe is not with feminism, but rather, lazy ass women. I feel the same way about men who want a woman to cook and clean and nurture, but aren’t willing or able to protect/provide.

What we have now, is a system that is out of balance. Women are better educated, are in better paying jobs, etc, and that is absolutely fine, but some women today are on a narcissistic, ego-driven power trip.

Women are doing the work of TWO people nowadays (domestic duties and working outside the home). You damn right things are out of balance! And we would do those things gladly if you people supported us instead of kicking us for growing with the times, while you all grasp to antequated notions of gender just to hold on to your fragile masculine identities.

What I mean is this, try telling a woman, or assert your dominant role as God commanded it in the institution of marriage in a house where a woman makes more than you. Women nowadays aint havin’ it, and for perfectly good reason. Women have had to assume to role of mother, father, protector, & provider due to the absence of men wanting to stand up and be responsible, the number of single-parent homes illustrates that point. So, when a woman enters into a marriage, where she is by God’s commandment, a helpmate or in a subservient role, it’s harder for women to take a step back and let a man assume that role, especially when a woman has been more than holding her own on her own.

Now, I don’t usually entertain arguments that cite God’s “commandments”, because that is presumptive Christian elitism for you to assume that I believe the same things that you do when it comes to God. Plus, the idea that God commanded me to be subservient or “a helpmate” makes me giggle like Elmo. So I am just ignoring that part.

Listen women, I understand that men are not men like they should be, and I know it’s frustrating for you, but what a lot of you have to guard against is always challenging him as a man, throwing your higher salary or education in his face. What women need to try and understand is that a lot of men come from homes where a father was not present, so he may not have had a viable example of what a real man is or what a real man is suppose to do, so he wings it. Women need to be aware of that, and just be there to support and encourage him, because he’s going to make mistakes. Now women I’m not saying you take a backseat and let monkey-assed behavior go unchecked, but for the sake of this argument, I’ll just hope that you understand the point I’m attempting to make.

Translation: we aint doing right, but it’s not our fault, so please just let us get away with it some more. We are weaker, but for some bizarre reason, you should let us be the head of the household because the Bible says you should.

A woman is 2nd only to God, yet a lot of us feel that women today are not the women that we have become accustomed to, and you’re right, but times change, and people change.

So, we are “second to God”, but we should defer to you why again?

In today’s economy it would be extremely hard to support an entire household on a single income, so men need not feel threatened if their woman is making more than him, just be the man that God commanded in your home, and a woman has no choice but to recognize and respect that.

In today’s economy it would be extremely hard to support an entire household on a single income, so men need not feel threatened if their woman is making more than him, just be the man that God commanded in your home, and a woman has no choice but to recognize and respect that.

So, to sum up: you can’t afford to provide for us anymore, we have to work, but you want us to be subservient. THIS IS SOME MOTHERFUCKING BULLSHIT! Men are just as guilty, if not more, than women of expecting the opposite sex to subscribe to traditonal gender roles, while failing to they themselves do just that.

Things have changed, the problem is you have one group of people who refuse to realize that and another group of people who refuse to acknowledge the ways in which traditional behaviors work. Checks and fucking balances, hello world! It’s not hard.

29 05 2008
Shine

So TVOR, what if your wife vehemently and fundamentally disagrees with you?

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

@Shine: disagrees with me to what point??

29 05 2008
Shine

TVOR, you never went around telling people your name was Rico in college did you? I swear you sound like a friends ex who I argued with on a 90 minute drive who tried to tell me all women were delicate like flowers on the inside. I said that may be true but so are men. So whats the big dif? This was the basis for his definition that women catch feelings in a relationship because we weren’t inherently sensitive (like flowers) whereas men don’t get caught up because they weren’t. Instead of women have the option in this society to pick and choose who they are in a relationship with moreso than men and thus have more invested at the getgo rather than a man who may end up taking what he thinks he can get. The one being chased has more in it than the chaser who gets what he can catch.

I believe men should man up and take charge of certain things, but not all things and that is inclusive of marriage and family situations. So though I may not put you on my hitlist, I don’t like you much. And will probably have to argue with your ass all day.

29 05 2008
Shine

I’m saying you would like to move to a gated community or send your child to a charter school for whatever reasons. And your wife vehemently is against it and there’s no changing her mind. What happens? Is it always going to be down to you at the end of the day. Does she lose every argument if you 2 come down on different sides of the issue because you are head of the household?

29 05 2008
zoso

@ Mrs. Kennedy; Sounds like you should have a talk with your husband.

I’m pretty much with Digga on this topic.

And I’m leaning towards agreeing with Dustin.

Aside: I’m a black female and I do my thing. I do what feels right to me. Sometimes I do things classified as “feminine”, sometimes I do things classified as “masculine”. To me, each concept is fake as hell, as each definition changes/swaps, from culture to culture. And as for the Native American view. No thanks.

29 05 2008
Pro-Fem

What kind of feminist am I ? The angry kind.
 
The kind who doesn’t want to have civil discourse with men because women have been asking nicely for their basic human rights for centuries and it hasn’t exactly worked out for them. So, I no longer discourse , I demand. I do not have time to sit and talk hypothetical philosophy over midnight coffee – women are in need right now.

I desire a woman-centred, woman-based society because men have proven to be irresponsible and direspectful to all of mankind. Oh and by the way, racism, sexiem, ageism are one-way discriminatory tools; they cannot be used by an oppressed group. Reverse sexism is a fearfilled male construct without real meaning.
 
I think that, while it remains possible that there are some essential differences between the sexses beyond the physical, that all reasonable evidence leads us to the conclusion that those differences, if they exist at all, are swamped by social differences.

I think that our society imposes rigid gender roles on both sexes, and that those roles injure people of both sexes, although not in the same ways. While the negative effects are complex, they largely injure women by restricting their capacity to accquire and exercise power in the public sphere, and injure men in their capacity to manage their emotions and relationships in the way that would make them happiest. I believe that the total effects of these largely unexamined gender roles on outcomes for individuals and for society are very large.

I think that people, even those who think about these issues, find it very, very difficult to avoid accepting behavior constrained by those gender roles as normal and inevitable. Even someone who tries to behave equitably (and I include myself in this regard) in some contexts, will fail to in others. As a result I think anyone who objects to having their words or behavior criticized as sexist, because they consider themselves generally enlightened, is unreasonable — criticism of someone’s behavior is not criticism of their personhood.

I call myself a feminist because feminism is the existing movement that examines and works to counteract these gender roles. I don’t think of feminism as a zero-sum game –I think that every advance toward a more feminist society makes life better and more just for all people, men and women alike.

29 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

@SistaToldja: I think you’re missing some of my points. I’m not making excuses for men, nor am I making generalizations of all women. A woman is God’s treasure, she is the first teacher and nurturer of the child, so it would be foolish of me not to understand a woman’s power. Heaven lies at the feet of a mother. Having a child is the process of nature fulfilling itself in the female. To have a child does not necessarily make a woman a mother, but I firmly believe being equipped spiritually, mentally and morally to nurture them as they should be nurtured does.

The scripture says, “Train up the child in the way it should go and when it is old, it will not depart from that way.” The word “train” means to lead by example. The role of the mother is to nurture, nourish, feed and develop her child in accord with its nature. The word “nurture” and “nature” are synonymous, because you cannot nurture a life unless you feed it in accord with its nature. You(woman) are the greatest representatives of the nature of God Himself in creation. At your root is the true nature of God, which is love. A mother cannot nurture new life without love for that life and a mother’s love is different from any other kind of love. When a woman becomes a mother, there is a sacrifice that must be made. A mother will sacrifice her own pleasure of food and sleep for her child. There is no love in a man equal to the love of a mother for her child.

“Where there are no decent women, there are no decent men, for the woman, particularly the Black woman, is the Mother of Civilization.” In the Book of Proverbs, Solomon said, “A wise child maketh a glad father, but a foolish child is the heaviness of its mother.” Is this true of all women? No. Is this true of all men? No.

I’m not saying that all men are inherent fuckups, nor am I going to place the blame for a man’s behavior on what has happened in the past. Yes, some men have distorted views on what a real man is, and yes, this is partly due to a man not being in the home. At some point, men have to develop a decent sense of right & wrong, and exercise the self discipline to do the what they know is the right thing. I’m talking to the men that do not work, prey on women, and make an endless brood of babies and never take care of them. What it causes is resentment in women towards men. The same can be said of women with distorted views of reality that leads to men resenting women and thus never realizing a woman’s true nature and intention.

Until we as men and women can understand how things became skewed, we will continue to have this argument. Are there things about my male counterparts that I find embarrassing? Yes, but it is also my responsibility to ensure that in my house, I provide a good example of what a man is to both my son & daughter, and let them see the God in me, and let others see God in my children… should I ever decide to have children.

Now to address your point of my “presumptive Christian elitism,” I never said I was a Christian nor did I assume you were one. I do however use scriptures from the Bible, Quran, & Torah to make my points. So in response to your statement, “So, we are “second to God”, but we should defer to you why again?” Because God said so, not me. I try my best to align myself to what God says. I do not consider myself a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or Agnostic, but merely just a man of God, but that’s an entirely different argument. If a man is doing what he should, providing and protecting his family, leading by example, staying on the straight and narrow, then it really shouldn’t matter his religious affiliation is.

29 05 2008
Lauren

Wow. This shit is ridiculous. It comes down to choice. I don’t believe in women or anybody sitting around playing the victim, womanist, feminist or not. If your man asks you to cook and clean after working all day…why the hell would you do it? Tell him to cook his own fucking dinner. If your woman wants you to pay for all the dates and she works like you do…tell her no. Feminism is about CHOICE and EQUALITY, being either a homemaker or career woman, having a child or an abortion, and having your choice respected.

The breakdown of the black family is nothing more than this generation of people that want to always blame THIER shit on others. At the end of the day, you ain’t taking care of your kids cuz you dont fucking want to. Period. Fuck drugs. Fuck war. Fuck slavery and all that other shit cuz that don’t have a damn thing to do with why someone ain’t parenting NOW. Being good parents has nothing to do with being married or even loving the person you made babies with.

And feminism is not to blame for male and female fuck-ups. People are.

29 05 2008
stuffblackpeoplehate

Sweet screaming Jesus…

29 05 2008
Muse

Lauren,

Feminism did change the mindset on how woman approach relationships, career, and domestic responsibilities. Since we still live in a patriarchal society, the genders are in conflict because we are still trying to put each other in established roles which are becoming obsolete.

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

^^^^^you WERE asking for it…

29 05 2008
Muse

I remember the last time I screamed Jesus and it wasn’t in church. HAHAHAHA..Okay dirty thoughts…I’m going to finish my work now haha..

29 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

hmmm so what I miss? Damn job made me actually work today..fuck…gonna read this read fast…and then leave the rest of my nut in my next comment 🙂 toodlez

29 05 2008
Yonnie3K

Lauren, you’re trying to give a very simple (and wrong) answer to a very complex problem. Dig Deeper. I’m all for accepting responsibility for our own actions, pulling ourselves up by our boot straps – all that. But how you gonna ignore all of the other events, issues, factors, etc. that clearly have had an effect. To imply that what happens in one generation has NO impact on what happens in the next generation is ridamndiculous and I”m sure you know that.

29 05 2008
Yonnie3K

Thanks Shine. I italicized.

29 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

Ok well I grew up with an old fashion military family. Everyone who is everybody as been in the military. And in my family, well with the older ppl in my family liek my grandmother and her sister ect. They think that the woman should be home taking care of house and children and all thats domestic shit. Personally I have to disagree, Women are just as capable of doing the same shit men can, but i cant stand those women who take it to far. Like my Aunt, i swear this woman should have been born with a dick because she treats her husband who happeneds to be a Chief in the Navy like he is her wife. Its fucking hilarious. One day we were talking and she was talking and she was telling me that she never wanted to get married per-se but be the husband and the man be the wife. I looked at her like WTF?? why dont she just be a lesbian hahah. I am all for womens right totally like voting, being on council and having the right to choose an career they want. I watched my mom over the years get screwed over at her job get passed up for some male employee who was seriously a dipshit and i knew that when i was 9, and now she runs shit after almost 30 yrs working there. fucking finally

But I do have a friend that Chris describes in his blog and that bitch gets on my fucking nerves. I had her and her boyfriend over for dinner and asked her man and mine if they wanted another beer and she flipped out, said something like “Girl they are some grown ass men they can get their own beer sit down”. And I’m looking at her like ummmmmmmmmm WOW..I was just being a good host and she went all jumbo balls on me. ahaha

29 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

Lauren-Wow. This shit is ridiculous. It comes down to choice. I don’t believe in women or anybody sitting around playing the victim, womanist, feminist or not. If your man asks you to cook and clean after working all day…why the hell would you do it? Tell him to cook his own fucking dinner. If your woman wants you to pay for all the dates and she works like you do…tell her no. Feminism is about CHOICE and EQUALITY, being either a homemaker or career woman, having a child or an abortion, and having your choice respected.

The breakdown of the black family is nothing more than this generation of people that want to always blame THIER shit on others. At the end of the day, you ain’t taking care of your kids cuz you dont fucking want to. Period. Fuck drugs. Fuck war. Fuck slavery and all that other shit cuz that don’t have a damn thing to do with why someone ain’t parenting NOW. Being good parents has nothing to do with being married or even loving the person you made babies with.

And feminism is not to blame for male and female fuck-ups. People are.

Hmmm..I must agree..

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

Men for HRC? Why?

Feminism and Gentrification Just throwing stuff out there.

29 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

The Voice of Reason-@Muse: That’s easy, if you have a wife that’s grinding just as hard as you, then you compromise, whoever get’s home first is responsible for dinner. I know that when you include children into the equation, then it can complicate things, but lets just assume this is in the absence of children, for a family working towards starting a family. As far as house chores go, divide them, have trash, dishes, etc nights. One person is responsible for the trash, the other for the dishes, and clean as you go, and pick up after yourself. When you get out of there shower, just spray it down, so when the weekend comes around, you’re not having to turn the house upside down trying to clean it, and devote the entire day to cleaning. For me, I’m up everyday at 6, so on Sat I’m at the barbershop by 7, but I start a load of clothes before I leave as well as the dishwasher, so when I get home, all I have to do is vacuum and fold my clothes, I’m usually done by 9. It’s not that hard, people have a tendancy to make things harder than they have to be.

Shoot thats the only way it will work around here fuck all that you cook dinner everynight and i just eat BS..My advice to anyone who is about to move in with their bf or gf come up with a plan because if you dont shit will be insane and nothign will get done. Cuz as much as i love to cook dont mean i like to everynight…like last Xmas it was too funny, I was getting a plate and my grandmother automaticlly asked me if i was getting my man a plate since he was downstairs watching football..I looked at her and was like No he knkows where the food is and if he was hungry he woulda brang his ass up here with me hahaha. she looked and laughed and was liek so the times have changed..fuck i look like a walking room service..negative..Brings me back to my fucking bitch ass ex anf his “family values” when he would get pissed when i would serve everyone at the table the same amount of food and he would tell me that the man of the house “him” gets the largest portions..fuck youuuuu

29 05 2008
Merri Lee

@The Voice of Reason – cute wedding website!

29 05 2008
Quirky Cutie

To be honest, I see feminism as a white woman’s struggle. Black women have always supported the black home by working AND take of the home. Black men have it good. Black women (at least in the US) couldn’t, and can’t, afford to be lazy or “just cook and clean.” When I hear about women who don’t work, and despite being at home all day, the place is still a pig stye, it always turns out the women isn’t black.

Maybe I’m different than some women, maybe it’s just b/c I come from a West Indian family, but I like the idea of “taking care” of my man. I like keeping a clean home and making home-cooked meals. I want my man to need me and I want to need my man. I don’t see anything unhealthy with that, in fact I think to have a healthy relationship, both people have to feel needed. If a woman doesn’t agree with traditional roles, fine, but then don’t bitch when he asks you to shovel snow!

30 05 2008
Knatural

I come back and this topic still hasn’t deviated into sex, 80s crap, or anything fun, what? Oh, well. I’ll watch my 3 hours of Lost.

30 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

hahaha Knat.. I was wondering the same shit.. I was like damn I havent been on this ish alll day and not once did i read anyone of my SBPH hommies turn this in to a full out dick and pussy convo DAMMIT now i must settle for watching a re-run of Tela Tequila hahah

30 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

Tila** opps

30 05 2008
Amadeo

What ignorant sub-population are you addressing?

Ummm…the one that exists…in pretty large numbers. Lazy women don’t want to do anything. However, there are many women who will work (and hard), but when dating expect that a man should be paying all the time as though this is a sign that he want’s to provide and would make a good mate.

Damn that. I can get with it until we get to this point…if we both work then we both understand bills, budgets, and all the things that come with being an adult. So what really would give a clue to how things turn out down the line is my wanting to pay…but having (and letting) the woman pay sometimes because we both have jobs and responsibilities. If I pay for two meals on two occasions, by the third my girl is trying to pay. If we both want to go out then why would one foot the bill. That’s give and take. Just like marriage. We can’t both put out equally into the world and then have one party (either party) put in partially in our union. Same with cooking and cleaning. Someone’s gonna break eventually.

Mind you, you may not be in that category…just as my girl isn’t and plenty of women I know aren’t, but I know equal amounts that expect this. When they don’t see it they figure it’s typical of something greater down the line.

You mentioned ignorance…in all the classes I’ve been in there were less A students then B students.

30 05 2008
Angry IV

I’ll make you scream Jesus outside of church >:)

And I called it – this is a record-setting blog for most amount of book-like comments!

30 05 2008
Angry IV

dammit that face was supposed to be >=]

30 05 2008
Knatural

Am I a feminist if I get mad because my husband farts without saying ‘excuse me’?

30 05 2008
Mrs.Epps

lol@ angry..right..

30 05 2008
Shine

hell I tried to deviate into 80s cartoons but w’ant nobody havin it. Also I had to get at the Voice of Reason.

@Mrs. Epps. It’s funny i grew up mad military too (being that we grew up around DC) but my parents met in the army, they were both enlisted. So didn’t get too much of that traditional roles thing. In fact my father is a big proponent of if you want to eat you should learn to cook (my brothers can, guranteed they can mostly cook you an all meat buffet with some eggs on the side but that’s what they want to eat.) and he swears he learned to clean and from his southern grandparents and the army, neither of which were dealing with dirty nickels waiting on someone else to fetch after them. So I grew up with first one home fixes dinner and cereal is for breakfast except on sundays. Yet men do get more food since they get it anyway on the seconds. Also every one does all the cleaning. But there were some roles that I associate with gender because thats the way we split it. Yard work is mens/boys work as is barbecuing or frying meat or cooking greens (my daddys southern, my mom’s not). But baking is womens work as is gardening or laundry when the men are outside. In the winter everyone cleans indoors and I had to stop my dad doing my laundry wantonly because he likes to pour bleach on anything thats not brightly colored. Ruined some good damn khaki colored clothes of mine with that nonsense. But I think its a good balance of gender roles based on the specific couple. Most black military couples I know work this way with everyone working, everyone cooking and everyone cleaning but coming to an understanding in their relationship about who is doing what role based on each others background/skills or understanding.

30 05 2008
Shine

hell I tried to deviate into 80s cartoons but w’ant nobody havin it. Also I had to get at the Voice of Reason.

@Mrs. Epps. It’s funny i grew up mad military too (being that we grew up around DC) but my parents met in the army, they were both enlisted. So didn’t get too much of that traditional roles thing. In fact my father is a big proponent of if you want to eat you should learn to cook (my brothers can, guranteed they can mostly cook you an all meat buffet with some eggs on the side but that’s what they want to eat.) and he swears he learned to clean and from his southern grandparents and the army, neither of which were dealing with dirty nickels waiting on someone else to fetch after them. So I grew up with first one home fixes dinner and cereal is for breakfast except on sundays. Yet men do get more food since they get it anyway on the seconds. Also every one does all the cleaning. But there were some roles that I associate with gender because thats the way we split it. Yard work is mens/boys work as is barbecuing or frying meat or cooking greens (my daddys southern, my mom’s not). But baking is womens work as is gardening or laundry when the men are outside. In the winter everyone cleans indoors and I had to stop my dad doing my laundry wantonly because he likes to pour bleach on anything thats not brightly colored. Ruined some good damn khaki colored clothes of mine with that nonsense. But I think its a good balance of gender roles based on the specific couple. Most black military couples I know work this way with everyone working, everyone cooking and everyone cleaning but coming to an understanding in their relationship about who is doing what role based on each others background/skills or understanding.

30 05 2008
Shine

hell I tried to deviate into 80s cartoons but w’ant nobody havin it. Guess it got played out yesterday. Also I had to get at the Voice of Reason.

@Mrs. Epps. It’s funny i grew up mad military too (being that we grew up around DC) but my parents met in the army, they were both enlisted. So didn’t get too much of that traditional roles thing. In fact my father is a big proponent of if you want to eat you should learn to cook (my brothers can, guranteed they can mostly cook you an all meat buffet with some eggs on the side but that’s what they want to eat.) and he swears he learned to clean and from his southern grandparents and the army, neither of which were dealing with dirty nickels waiting on someone else to fetch after them. So I grew up with first one home fixes dinner and cereal is for breakfast except on sundays. Yet men do get more food since they get it anyway on the seconds. Also every one does all the cleaning. But there were some roles that I associate with gender because thats the way we split it. Yard work is mens/boys work as is barbecuing or frying meat or cooking greens (my daddys southern, my mom’s not). But baking is womens work as is gardening or laundry when the men are outside. In the winter everyone cleans indoors and I had to stop my dad doing my laundry wantonly because he likes to pour bleach on anything thats not brightly colored. Ruined some good damn khaki colored clothes of mine with that nonsense. But I think its a good balance of gender roles based on the specific couple. Most black military couples I know work this way with everyone working, everyone cooking and everyone cleaning but coming to an understanding in their relationship about who is doing what role based on each others background/skills or understanding.

30 05 2008
rachism

Chris I understand & respect the co-dependence roles you’re talking about however, outside of the Conoy, in a western capitalist system I don’t think that would work because of capitalism’s hierarchal nature and because money = power. period. Where’s the co-dependence in that? Maybe we should become socialists first and then try to do it the Conoy way.

30 05 2008
Sister Toldja

I am done writing term papers on here today. But, TVOR, I must say this: you may not be a Christian, but you take scriptures to be the words to live by. As someone who is not Christian, Muslim or Jewish, nor very interested in the concept of organized religion beyond it’s role as a social tool in the Black community….I’m not familar with those words. Its still very presumptive of you to assume that I would follow those books because you do or ‘most’ Black folks follow the word can recite the word of the Bible. I am gonna pull out some old Betty And Veronica Double Digests and a copy of the Source from October 1997 to help me state my arguement. That would be just as fair.

30 05 2008
Shine

damn that went through 3 times. Sorry bout that. I was having issues over here
Mozilla doesn’t seem to like SBPH

30 05 2008
30 05 2008
The Voice of Reason

SisterToldja: You can use whatever reference material you like to illustrate your point. All I’m saying is scripture or not, alot of choices and behavior really comes down to common sense which people seem to or not to excercise

30 05 2008
Sandy

Its funny, I just finished writing a paper about this in my African women and feminism class. Apparently, African feminist ideals are basically what you just argued. Go figure. Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf is a spectacular example of this.

30 05 2008
letinstar

some of the best cooks and hairdressers i know are men…the person who did my lawn and kept it immaculate was a woman…i hate labels…

30 05 2008
shabooty

but was she a mexican woman?

30 05 2008
letinstar

@shabooty: to answer your question, “but was she a mexican woman?”…no she wasn’t…she was a white woman…

30 05 2008
shabooty

ddamn u must be rich, to afford to hire white labor workers.

i want a white maid, my self.

=]

30 05 2008
Shine

luv ya shabooty!

30 05 2008
Alph Dapalf

So you shouldn’t hate Feminism…you should hate Western Civilization and Capitalism. Feminism is necessary here and now.

30 05 2008
Peacock Strut

Too many comments already to read over, so I’ll comment on the original blog as is:
It was concise and to the point and I couldn’t agree more, or have said it any better myself. Modern western feminism is fatally flawed as it is, and is one of the (many) ideologies slowly leading to the destruction of our already downtrodden society. The institution of marriage is already shot, and one of main culprits is feminism in it’s current form. Just look at the divorce rate! It didn’t used to be like this for our grandparents man. Men and women were made differently for a reason, because we complete each other. What a man lacks, a woman compensates for and vice versa. Western feminism takes on the forward and aggressive posture of masculinity, and with each convert further places our world community in a state of disarray. This makes it harder and harder for corrective measures to restore BALANCE to succeed. Come on LADIES, you can’t have Yin without the Yang! Feel me?

31 05 2008
Nonya

This post missed the mark for me. Black feminists have fought long and hard against the stereotypes of the black woman as “manly” and “overly aggressive.” Early black women feminists and activists were tired of being defined in opposition to white women, who were portrayed as more womanly, pure, and pristine. the idea that black women are “aggressive” is a myth based on racist stereotypes of black women since the times of slavery when black women were forced to work in the fields along side of the black man. Hence the birth of these ridiculous stereotypes.

Marriages in the black are in peril not because of any attempts of the black woman to emasculate her man, but becuase changes in the economy have made marriage less of a viable option for people. Black men and women do not want to marry until they are financially stable and in an era of high unemployment, globalization, deunionization, lack of good factory jobs, increasing gaps in wealth between the rich and poor, crime and drugs in our community, and other disparities that plague the black community (e.g. health, education), getting married just isn’t our number one priority.

Furthermore, just because women are handling their business in the boardroom, courts, classrooms, etc. does not mean that they are not equally sensitive, caring nurturing and submissive.
I’m well on the way to completing my PhD and this doesn’t mean that I want to rule over my man or rub anything in his face. Honestly I’m equally skilled on the job and in the kitchen. I don’t mind being submissive and neither do my PhD educated girlfriends. Granted, I need a man who does not feel as though his main contribution to me must be financial in order for things to be in order and for us to be blissfully in love. Times are changing, men should just adapt and stop blaming women for the downfall of the black family, when we have been busting our asses to save it.

Anyway, what do I care. Because black men are so busy stereotyping me as aggressive and emasculating they will not take the time to really get to know me? Well, trust me, sooner or later I will stop waiting for a black man to value and respect me and I’ll just try “something new.”

31 05 2008
Nonya

And just to add, previous posts are right, 2-income families are now pretty much a necessity.

The problem with men is that they are constantly comparing women now to women of their momma’s generation. And so inevitably they believe that woman now do not match up when women now are a completely different group. I also often hear men say that they want a woman who works and who is not lazy. So while the black woman is working, men need to realize that she can’t do everything around the house all of the time. Men you can’t have it both ways, her working and making good money then coming home and doing every damn thing. She will need help, if not from you than hired help.
Chris says something about #2
But men, there is nothing emasculating about doing the dishes, laundry, or cooking everyonce in a while. Marriage should be a team effort. There is nothing emasculating about being reserved or compromising if its more practical instead of always having your way as “the man” of the house. A real man will do what is neccessary to keep the family functioning in love and peace, and cooperation..

As a radical black feminist who is handling her business professionally and who loves girly things and stereotypically girly activities (cooking, knitting, doing hair, dressing up) I pretty much disagree with everything in this post.

31 05 2008
letinstar

@shabooty: keep in mind that i also had a gay guy roommate and he liked things orderly….so we did have the white lady do the yard and we did also have a cleaning person…also white…we also had a pool guy (he was mexican) and he made sure to not show up most of the time…

1 06 2008
petarded

Disclaimer – I’m sexist. What can I say…..

Women want it all – they want to have the penis, but still be treated for having the vagina. It’s funny how women get pissy when you try to be chivalrous, and yet they get pissy when you stop trying to be chivalrous. Offer to help a woman with a physical task and you’re exemplary of what’s holding them down. Offer to go Dutch on a bill and you’re a cheap bum with no honor.

Men never win, except when it comes to pay day.

And the saddest thing of Chris’ commentary is that men don’t need women outside of being a depository for sperm. That is sad, when the current fight is for gender superiority, but veiled as gender equality, when it should be about gender balance. Men should be men with some added cooking/cleaning skills and compassion, and women should be women with a bit more in their paychecks.

But what do I know – I’m still looking for a wife who will be waiting by the door with a brandy in hand and dinner on the table when I get home. Or an insanely rich woman with low standards, which ever comes first.

1 06 2008
ninasimone

“Instead they chose option 1, and how very sad it is to see that choice reduce men and women to mere baby makers in the eyes of one another.”

it is sad.

cool characterization of the menstrual cycle as a “moon”…think i heard that before somewhere

i dont find this post objectionable.

1 06 2008
Danger Mouse

I used to be a much greater supporter of feminism when I was younger until I realized a few years back that it was basically a white women’s movement that was never really intended to include other persons of color unless it conveniently suited their needs at various points in the movement.

Now I have a more balanced and fair perceptions about feminism and women’s role in society. I’ve learned that women can still be strong leaders and still embrace their feminine qualities. When a woman starts to behave stereotypically like a man (e.g. acting too macho), due to the misperception that it will eventually lead to receiving equal treatment like a man, too often I believe it ends up backfiring because it looks and feels too unnatural and is very undermining in the process.

2 06 2008
Nonya

@ Danger Mouse, are you naive? Acting like a “stereotypical” male ( and if by this you mean assertive, confident, outspoken, headstrong) does payoff and does lead to professional success and respect on the job. Why shouldn’t these things come natural and feel natural to a woman? It’s other people’s problem if they want to assume you are one-dimensional (i.e. the same way in every setting).

And who said white women have such a hold on feminism that you can’t be a feminist too? Be proud of your feminist heritage. 😉

3 06 2008
BigSexy

I am a woman and I agree that feminism has done so much damage to modern society.

3 06 2008
justanotheropinion

My feeling on scripture – it was written 1000’s of years ago handed down from an oral tradition of basic survival techniques that got the human race through some very primitive, barbaric times. In the past made more sense for men to “provide” and “protect” the family because on average they were indeed physically more capable of performing those tasks. Women were more in need of protection because ultrasounds and neonatal clinics didn’t exist and many died during pregnancy. And if that happened more often than it did, we wouldn’t be typing our little opinions on the internet now.

Nowadays we have nice convenient things like back hoes, zoos, dishwashers and therefore some of those antiquated rules no longer apply.

As a society, we are reluctantly progressing towards a situation where it makes no sense to have “isms” – these constructs simply divide us like the tower of Babel Project. (Which btw I believe is one aspect of ancient scripture that is still very relevant today.) We’ve got this survival thing down and anyone regardless of sex or race has the opportunity to pursue whatever makes them fulfilled. Women can be CEO’s and men can change a diaper. All people have the potential to excel at any role in family/society and do not have to be pigeonholed based on however we like to slice and dice up the human race. We need to let go of all these “isms” and work together in love and harmony and Heaven on Earth will be ours.

4 06 2008
Nonya

leaving the same comment twice is bad “comment etiquette” so here I go anyway because I ams so angry. Black feminists have fought long and hard against the stereotypes of the black woman as “manly” and “overly aggressive.” Early black women feminists and activists were tired of being defined in opposition to white women, who were portrayed as more womanly, pure, and pristine. the idea that black women are “aggressive” is a myth based on racist stereotypes of black women since the times of slavery when black women were forced to work in the fields along side of the black man. Hence the birth of these ridiculous stereotypes.

Marriages in the black are in peril not because of any attempts of the black woman to emasculate her man, but becuase changes in the economy have made marriage less of a viable option for people. Black men and women do not want to marry until they are financially stable and in an era of high unemployment, globalization, deunionization, lack of good factory jobs, increasing gaps in wealth between the rich and poor, crime and drugs in our community, and other disparities that plague the black community (e.g. health, education), getting married just isn’t our number one priority.

18 06 2008
Ariah

Man, I’d love to take a vacation during my moons! Pack some magnesium rich food and a hammock and GTFO Dodge.

14 07 2008
Superwoman :Having It All « Stuff Girls Like

[…] You have say that the media shares part of the blame because they love to take a high flying career woman and make her a pin up. Do not get me wrong, there is a need for women to be encouraged but it is equally unrealistic for people to tell them they can have their cake and eat it. I will not be having a go at feminists as Stuff Black People Hate did. […]

5 08 2008
Samia

I identify as a feminist and disagree with some of your points, but I just had to let you know that the graphic accompanying your statement about chivalry is great. Beyond great. Thanks for that.

14 01 2009
Jessie

Just one point to make – feminism is not about women becoming like men, it is simply based on equality. Being a feminist does not mean you want to cut men’s balls off, live in a female only world, or become masculine. It is purely about equality, and as such belongs in an overall assault on discriminations based on race, gender and sexual orientation.
That is all.

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